Faith... what does it mean?

Folks have faith in all manner of things , but faith in God is simply t have the confidence in love to love despite this world's ways of making folks unloving...

A discussion with an ex-Lutheran about what faith means ...

"...growing up Lutheran means people saying or implying "Christ will accept or reject you based on you being loving" sets off all sorts of "justification by faith and not works of the law" alarms.(But clarifying the rejected are just rejected as kings/priests turned most of them off)"

my response:-

yes, I understand... but what 'alarms' are still ringing... it is to everyone's use that you do not ignore any of them, they are one's insight... talk about them if you will, my friend...

What's the place of faith in your view anyway? Is it something like what Tattedsaint said, that "only faith in Christ saves, but all will come to faith"? And then be perfected through that faith, whether in this life or the next?

That is some of it, but one must bear in mind what Jesus said [Rev 13:3-8] that what most people come to think of as 'The Faith' in a christ, their saviour as they see it at the time, is faith in the antichrist, the one in place of Christ ... Thus it is Satan that drives religion in this world, Satan who is GIVEN power to delude mankind to worship his image of a saviour through creedal religion , it is God's plan to do so :-

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God explains His plan in 2Thess 2 through Paul, men just ignore it and carry on with tradition , even knowing its history ... it surprises me so much that I still argue with god that His plan would fall apart if more men read his scripture ... that He seems to find amusing in me , and I see His point , we are so blind that we cannot see what is written before our eyes in black and white, we stumble at noon-day because we cannot escape what we have learned from the world in denial of the pricks of our consciences ... it is easy to forget that all men serve God when He is allowing all the earth to worship the dragon that will do miracles and seem to be the Messiah returned doing great works for mankind ... men cannot free themselves from beliefs they accepted before understanding the scripture , but how could anyone truly say they believe the scripture before understanding what it all says ??? ... it is a damning logical argument against divided creedalism which rules religion and the world of divided mankind... it will be far worse [especially for the few saints] when religion unites under the antichrist...

Thus when people talk of 'faith' as though it were just one thing, I have to ask "faith in what ?".... faith in a false christ only leads one to death, so what use strong faith in a lie? ... Yet God tells us that almost all people will believe the lie ... and He has a reputation for being right! He seems to like it when I see He wins all the arguments I have with Him, and I am glad too when He wins because it is understanding he allows us to come to , that He is right because He is worthy to be our God ... creedal religion though is not a worthu 'faith' at all , but many, almost all, will come to believe in creedalism yet ... never understanding the scriptures before committing to 'faith' that kills them for certain ...

yet death is God's answer to not having to provide grace for everyone ...

Romans 6:7 [REB] For, he that hath died, hath become righteously acquitted from his sin.

Thus if we read the new covenant carefully we should see that it is only with those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9] and thus not with the billion and more 'chrsitians' who have 'faith' that they are saved despite being sinners to death [along with their sinner priests of course]

Thus we find few people who will read this scripture as it is written :-

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

In the first instance it is written ONLY to those who become saints , who are of the House of Judah or the House of Israel, previously rejected, but now accepted [Jer 31:31-34] ,

and in the second instance simply read what it says ... faith is NOT something of ourselves , we do not LEAP into faith in love as sinners would have us leap into believing them ... rather faith is GIVEN by God in spirit baptism WHEN he decides we are ready for it and He is ready for us to believe Him, not Satan...

Thus we find the truth in scripture that FEW are to find the narrow way of sainthood in this earth because God will make His priesthood perfect first [so much for sinners who make themselves priests and presume to drag others down into divided religion of traditional creeds of men ?]

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

One cannot then GET faith in love, in God , one abandoned it as a child in learning to live the world's way under Satan, and Satan is not the fool many take him for, he is well aware of the power of religion in this world ... divided religion is simply the means to create the urge for unity that makes men compromise completely their love and accept the new world religion of the new christ to come , but Jesus warned that it will be the antichrist, not himself ... men will not heed that warning, but will spin things as usual , likely say that someone in the past was the antichrist, [say Hitler or some other figure perhaps? ... men truly mostly believe what they want to believe , it is integral to the paradox we are that we so deepmost want to love and be loved , but do no such thing to everyone with our lives... the world of Satan and religion steals our love and we cannot find it again without God's intervention to restore our naive faith in love - that we had as little children before it was taken away by the world saying love is 'impractical' and not 'grown-up' and so on ...]

We find then that despite what our institutions teach us, that God is actually in total control, and prophesied the apostasy of the whole world from belief in love, belief in Him... quite simply it is HIS plan, the way to trap Satan and get him out of the way for a thousand years whist the new earth kingdom is set up using the few [only] that god requires as the priests and kings in the new earth... but this time everyone is PERFECT in love BEFORE they rule or teach anyone ... the power is on the side of faith in love, not faith in Satan's sin way of 'life' [that actually leads only to grey death, a sort of living torment which men call 'civilisation' and 'progress' ... and of course it still hasn't stopped even now we know we are destroying our very home, the earth, destroying nature that feeds us faster than she can recover... we see our way of death and still do not stop.... we cannot save ourselves ...

Thus God's plan, somewhat inevitably unfolds , as it si written, but men do not mostly believe it the way it is written... I am trying to come to terms with that, I still find it hard to believe that we are so blinded by 'faith' in unlovingness that we cannot see what is before our eyes, written down as soon as men could write it down... but then my own blindness is long-standing, and I cannot see too well yet either, why should I find it so hard to understand how easy it is for God to blind men through our vanity...?

The other side of the coin is that we feel such pain in simply being told by God His truth about ourselves, no pain comes close to it, yet the pain is of no importance, it is illusion, for there is no pain in perfect love which will come to all eventually... but the pain keeps us blind awhile... allows God's plan to proceed with its perfect timing, removing men bit by bit IRREVERSIBLY from Satan's grasp ... but you see the scripture says that the first batch after Jesus comes at his return... just 144,000 saints form this whole earth, one in a million or so only!

But that is all god needs for each of those can bring 'home' to love another 144,000 i the kingdom come in the new earth, as priests as perfect as Jesus, sons of God ... thus that amounts to over 10 billion redeemed afterward [Rev 7:9-10] comparable to the number of men that ever lived.... God thus requires but a few at first ...and thus the many are left gnashing their teeth at Jesus' return, at being lied to by their priests ... but their priests were sinners to death too, mean could have read the scripture and known that neither divided religion, nor united world religion was true ... it does not really matter what label one puts on it, it is simply the way God tells it i scripture and thus the way it must be [if the God of scripture is the true god] ...

The key to seeing through religion then is to read the scripture and see it does not say what those who say that they 'believe' it [before knowing what it says!] say that it says... one can disprove ALL creedal religion using only the scripture as written... but I think that is very hard to do that once one commits to believing the mock priests BEFORE understanding the whole as a whole :-

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but byevery word of God.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Men thus teach men religion and demand 'faith' in the words of sinners [under gruesome threats of being lost somehow by the loving God, the good Shepherd is supposed to mislay some somehow !], but the saints do not teach the saints at all , the new covenant itself [Heb 8:8-12] says so! :-

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

There is the difference between the 'congregation' of God of the few saints, and the churches full of sinners taught by sinners...

now saints , such as St Paul , were sent to teach sinners a little about Israel and the saints , a mercy mission to save sinners some pain later in the new earth... whereas the other disciples main mission was NOT to the gentile sinners , but to find the lost house of Israel's remnant who were to continue to provide saints for the world to kill , never completely dying out though , just a couple of thousand or so scattered worldwide, keeping the tiny congregation of saints going until Jesus' returns....

Thus how can one find true faith in this world? ... the answer is that one cannot do so of oneself... it has to come from God, and He will only give all His truth , the gift of faith in love because it is the only true way , to a few for now , he has said so and explained why. but is fully aware that few will listen ...cos' men prefer to be spoon-fed their 'faith' by sinners ....

Thus all things REQUIRE proof from scripture ,and modern religion needs reproof to scripture, but will never accept it ...not this side of death ...

The saints then are required to prove all things from the whole scripture even though they are given it all by God Himself :-

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

The reason is simply the power of persuasion of Satan, that almost overcomes even the saints ,just prior to Jesus' return... it is hard for them to go against everyone in the world, people they love... Jesus thus cuts short the time to save them failing at the last ...

Thus ,when one talks of 'faith' , what can one mean if one does not understand all truth and know all scripture... what is one saying one has faith in , if one says one believes scripture but does not even bother to know what it actually says ??? __________________

Are the "many" who are let into the Kingdom just people who had faith in this life but not perfection, or everyone regardless of faith?

Men mostly truly convince themselves they have faith in what sinners say , never however does that leap sit comfortably in them, they know that they will lose that belief because their own hearts assure them of that.... true faith [imho] is faith in 'love', but we do not know love until after spirit baptism reveals all truth to us [John 16:13]

So what point rushing to claim to have 'faith' and 'be saved' when one's heart tells one what true faith already exists only in it , largely denied, but impossible to silence except in death...? ...


God has promised to teach everyone Himself [Joel 2:28] what we already know ! [and so will recognise as the truth about love]... so why can men not wait for faith to be given? ... clearly we cannot most do this, even saints have trouble with having patience with God's plan...

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

Thus the many who sincerely believe they have faith in what sinners preach contrary to scripture in divided religion [or even when religion eventually unites] will be ALL the world [Rev 13:3-8] bar a handful of saints.... the many of Rev 7:9-10 are thus made up of people of all nations and beliefs from this world...

Those who go on to a second death for sin after receiving all God's truth in the new earth are simply what we would view as the most evil of men, those committed to Satan's ways ... God can only deal with them by letting them try to live with evil when there is no-one left who does not do as much evil to them as they do ... it is a simple effective loving solution for those who will not believe it whe God tells them Himself...

What scripture backs up that view? I know fire is an oft used symbol of purification in the Bible, Jesus hardly said anything straight, and that Revelations is part of an extremely metaphorical literary tradition, so have doubted the "eternal punishing fire" view for a while now.

Baptism of 'fire' is used as the symbol of the necessary trial of GIVEN faith to perfect love of all men eventually... the lake of 'fire' is no exception.... men know what is right , men cannot deny that love is right because our hearts and consciences will not cease that 'fire' of conflict within us that says what we need to do but do not do ...

The fire is simply the conflict within us between what we do ,sin, and what we most would want to do, love

The whole scripture is about this, you can read it on almost every page if you look ... it is declared from the beginning right to the end the glory of love over sin that is God's inevitable triumph ... but one scripture says it as absolutely in one verse as any other combination I have quoted :-

Revelation 5:13 [REB] And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying�"Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

the rest follows from simply coming to understand Gods written plan as written in the whole of scripture... it is not just in one place [else men would surely have edited it out ,since it denies creedal religion] ... you must then read the scripture as a whole to understand why God takes so long with his redemption, why it is not all at once as sinners claim it to be and billions have 'faith' that it is ...

I am no saint and thus no teacher ... and welcome reproof to the scripture from anyone who know more than I about any part of it ... you would do well to look at the scriptures and find out for yourself if what i have seen in them is true to what they say ... then you can tell me what you see in them and I shall be glad of your co-operative help... sinners should have a union so we act together, not fight to see who can claim they are right in our ignorance , indeed a congregational area for all who realise they are not saints but seeking what to believe in WITHOUT commitment until we understand all the scripture ... instead of the division this site encourages ...

thus do not make the mistake of thinking that I am proposing a creed or 'church' ... I merely want to discuss the scripture and reprove endlessly until God baptises me in this life or the next ...

then I might well like to teach and die like the saints and prophets and Jesus, if , as seems unlikely, it were in this life ... but then it is not a matter of chance...


Thus simply observe in reading Revelation that God has removed all who believe what He gives them as truth from the lake of fire, and thus realise that when it says Satan and those close to him are left there leading those who reject God truth to God's face, then these really are the most evil of men who believe in evil as a way ... what then do you think will happen when they try to live but have no-one who is not as evil to them ... suddenly there is no benefit in evil, it is just continual loss as all evil men suffer their own evil done to them by the only men left who are just as evil...


It seems to me simple and elegant proof that whilst evil seemed to work when there were relatively good people to prey upon in this world ,who largely didn't didn't prey back or rebel against all evil , by removing the vast bulk of these, God can make His point to the wicked and get them to sue for His enduring mercy .. until Satan is left alone, broken, god having shown His 'prodigal son' that he is no god at all, no followers whatsoever ...


Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.


Again, Satan is a created being ... and Jesus says that all created beings will accept him as Lord in the end ...Revelation 5:13 ...the most powerful statement about redemption in all scripture ...