The Days of Vice and Virtue

Dedicated to my Father, who suffered from a hereditary rage and anger he was unable to overcome in his life. But who I Iove and forgive.

The Days of Vice and Virtue

By

Carlos Lorenzo Estrada 

I can't remember when I loved you

Those moments fade to mind

I'm prisoner to these vices,

Both immoral and unkind

I broke you with my hands

Subservient to my need

Stripped away your humanity 

And caused your soul to bleed

Indifferent toward your suffering 

Found pleasure in your pain

The vows of love so long ago

Are far from my refrain

I'm lost in indiscretion 

Vile nature and conceit

Hid the world these simple facts

Found solace in deceit

But what profits the man who lost in life

And gained a heart of rage?

To destroy the better parts of him

Placed soul within a cage.

We yearn to be our better selves

Find virtue in that hope

To castigate and relegate 

And shame the hearts which broke.

But when will the sunrise

To reflect the better days?

To throw away these broken ties

And find our better ways.

You will find me there...

Author's Note

This was a difficult write but very important to bring to light. Often people wonder why anyone would put up with abuse regardless of the circumstances. But things, just like life and people, are complicated. We truly don't know what's in the heart's of both victim and abuser. All we are really left with in the aftermath is speculation and even if answered the reasons may still allude us. Years later near the end of my father's life he asked me for forgiveness...and all I could do as a son was hug him as he wept. Because by then I had come to understand some things...

Reviews

[barleygirl]

Well written & heartfelt. I don't find this poem to be the kind that would stir up any angst in another person who has lived thru some similar abuse. To be honest, I feel that you are still staying in your head quite a bit here . . . this is mostly stated in cerebral terms, so it doesn't come across as heart-tugging or emotionally moving one bit for me. This poem reflects a hard cold calculated person we can barely sink our teeth into. I find myself wondering which one is which. (((HUGS)))

[Carlos Lorenzo Estrada]

Thank you for your thoughts on this Margie I really appreciate it. Abuse is a very vile pernicious action that in quite a bit of cases can be hereditary. Very much so in males. My father was abused by his father and it would not surprise me one bit if it went even further back. One of my greatest fears is not I too am capable of such cruelty. It literally haunts me because it was seen as such an acceptable act through my childhood that I fear it would be instinctual. The sins of the father passed on to the child. Would rage consume me to the point I would grab my child's hand and place it over a burning stove? Or beat them with a buckle end of a belt? Much of my solitude is based upon these fears. An innate hereditary anger that when unleashed can not be controlled. This is the horror of abuse and its irredeemable quality. It is a message that underlies beneath the theme of this poem in an ambiguous way. The sins of the father.

[barleygirl]

Sounds like you've still got much roiling inside & I feel honored to be the recipient of your share (((HUGS)))

[Betty Hermelee]

Excellent poem and very relevant to today. I work with neglected and abused kids whose parent often are involved with domestic violence in the home; I see it all the time. But there is hope for some abusers, which I won't bore you with now. The victims often can't away from it, and it sometimes ends up in death. The abuser is stuck in his cage and can't apologize; just taken away to St. Elsewhere. Your poem goes deep into this all too familiar problem, in a very poetic way.
Best, B

[Carlos Lorenzo Estrada]

Thank you Betty for the kind words on this poem. Your insightful thoughts really speaks to the theme of this work. Thank you for sharing them.

[Betty Hermelee]

You’re quite welcome!

[jen]

my dad was a WWII radio operator on a B-17 also known as the flying fortress and also as flying coffins. He called me in a lot in the last couple of years of his life and talked about dreams that he was having. He was complicated (that is a nice and lady-like way of putting it). Although he was a liberal like me, he had faults that fell into the moral realm of those who should be allowed to daughters of women who died young.
I have come to accept my dad for a flawed human, but he is still the guy that made my childhood weird, creepy and scarey. As a human I connected with him when I was in my 30's but the end of the line is that he let me down as a dad of motherless girl in tragic ways.
Carlos, I am there and understand and applaud you. It is so hard having the duality of a kid that was wronged and an adult that has a heart that aches for a fellow human. I send you hugs because we both need it.

[Carlos Lorenzo Estrada]

Thank you, Jenny, for your most personally touching and kindest comment on this poem. We share the bond of being survivors. Our strength of heart is undeniable and will uncompromising. We choose not to allow our pain to define us but to help illuminate others with hope from what we manage to grow from and with. Our art speaks from a truth lived and broken experience. We can not regain those lost years that irreparably changed us, we can only choose to forgive and press forward or dwell in the past and continue to be victimized. I'm 55 and much too old to cling to lost things that I have already cast into the fire. The boy in me is still there and whispers, and I suppose he always will. But I don't see him anymore in the mirror I see a residual image and the scars inside haunt me less. This poem reflects my father while my other piece called "forgive" reflects me. These are messages I throw out into the world in hopes to heal hearts and minds who may be or have suffered similar pain. As I mentioned before to others I had forgiven my father years ago before he passed on. It was more difficult to forgive myself and to say it is ok to let this pain go. To breathe without haunted memories. To smile with meaning again. To be me, scars and all. I am so appreciative of this community of writers who have been nothing but kind and accepting of my art. I wish to do no less for the new voices who come here wishing to express their truth as well. Thank you for you kind words and especially your friendship. CLE

[Neville]

I grew up in a house filled with love .. but spent much of my working life working within the diverse field of mental health wherein I encountered many victims of abuse .. Your poem today moved me greatly my friend and I seriously take my hat off to you ... Forgiveness is indeed the greatest gift we can give another ..

Neville.

[Carlos Lorenzo Estrada]

Thank you Neville for your thoughts and friendship. This was a lifetime of thought and understanding. It required of me to understand the complications of my father's mind and heart. Even now he retains a bit of mystery that I may fully never know. And I'm ok with that. I had to learn to forgive myself which was the most difficult journey of all. But I'm in a good place now, and breathe more freely then I ever have before. It is my hope in revealing these things that someone who may be suffering find a bit of solace in themselves in the words that I write. That from tragedy beautiful things can spring forth from those ashes. Thank you so much again.

[Pete]

i grew up in a house of anger. both my parents were angry at the hands that life had dealt them. they were good people but very messed up. my mother hoarded and used to whip me and my older brother with an old belt to release her anger at having watched her mother die when she was 9, leaving her father with 5 children. he became a chain-smoking alcoholic. after growing up poor as one of 8 children of italian immigrants, my father demanded unrealistic perfection in everything. my parents were incapable of "real" love because they did not love themselves and were unable to accept and forgive. i understand but it doesn't lessen the pain and hurt. interesting how you show perspectives from both sides. thought-provoking

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

intriguing write. insightful eye-opener ... :)

[Carlos Lorenzo Estrada]

Thank you Pete for sharing your story and thoughts as well on this piece. For years I used to think there was something wrong with me to induce such anger from my father. I would find out in my early 20s the big family secret that was known by all of my relatives except me and my cousins. I am one of three sons and a middle child. My mother had me through an affair so I don't truly know much about my biological father. But the man who raised me vowed to treat me as his own. It really wasn't true though. For years I had always felt differently because of the way my relatives from my father's side treated me. My father was also an alcoholic and smoked a lot. When the beatings happened I felt confused because it always felt I was being singled out. Years later when my mother was forced to reveal the truth I was angry. I had always sensed being different but it didn't lessen the fact I deserved to know why these things had occurred to me and the indifference I was being treated with by other members of the family. When my father got sick and I spent the next 12 years taking care of him not once did I treat him horrible or seek revenge. I took care of him and sacrificed those years of my life making sure he was cared for. Most Holidays we spent just us two because all his family had a hard time dealing with his disability as well as his resentment for it. Those were difficult times because his despair slowly eroded his will to live. But despite all these things he was still my father. Not step father. My father. And I did what a son should do. I took care of him. I can't imagine what he felt seeing me do this for him. A son not of his blood taking care of him while the other two of his flesh not. In my eyes and heart there was nothing for me to forgive he was not the same person he was before his disability, he was just a broken man. Who had no one but me. The hardest part of all of this strange journey was learning to forgive myself for I had come to believe and see clearly I was the reason for his hate. But that wasn't really true. Abuse does that it infects the mind with self loathing and apathy towards oneself. But I have found peace now and accepted who I am knowing I can never change the past. I can only move forward and love who I am. These parts of me are why I write. It brings me peace and allows me to talk to others I the world. Others who may have suffered like me and feel alone. They are not alone nor are they the cause of their own pain. We are all just stories unto ourselves. Worthy of the words from which we came from. Thank you my friend for sharing a piece of your journey with me. I sincerely appreciate it.

[John the Baptist]

Interesting, well rhymed poem, accompanied by an equally interesting note. We wonder if the work is at least partially autobiographical, or if this is a profile of all abusers. That the poet sees the need to understand both abuser and victim is very insightful, raising the question of whether an outsider can be completely knowledgeable of the full dynamic involved.

[Carlos Lorenzo Estrada]

Thank you John for reading this poem. It very much is biographical in nature. My father abused me as a child growing up. There is a poem here that goes into detail of the situation I endured at his hands. It is called "Forgive". Be warned though it is a very powerful and emotional piece that speaks of my point of view while this was an attempt to capture my father's perspective. I feel both poems together round out the nature of abuse as a whole from both victims to abusers. Thank you for leaving such an insightful comment on this work I truly appreciate it.

[Vertigo Cat1111]

You had such bravery to post this. I can’t understand when people blame the victim and say they choose to stay that way- that’s the whole thing with abuse. Manipulation and fear. The theme throughout this seems to be cells and jails and I feel like that entirely, accurately represents it. You feel locked up, punished, and even if you could leave would you? Or are you too reliant on them? Excellent words and the strength you have to forgive your father is inspiring. It’s true, as you get older you understand better why some things were done, it doesn’t make it right though. Thank you so much for sharing, it’s an absolutely beautiful piece.

[Carlos Lorenzo Estrada]

Thank you Colacat for your thoughts on this poem. It was tough to write like most things personal but it needed to exist in the world. I hope people who suffered through abuse will see that it really doesn't have to do with them at all. It is a sickness of the mind and in most cases the abuser also suffered themselves in their youth and are simply repeating the same actions done to them. I remember growing up I had believed that somehow I had done something I didn't know to deserve the treatment I was getting from my father. Years later I would come to see that was not true. It was simply his sickness and burden in his mind and past. There was nothing I did to cause or deserve the abuse, my father was simply a prisoner of his own anguish and pattern of abusiveness he went through as a child. It was a cathartic write in creating this and I hope that anyone who may still have the lingering pain from their past abuse come to see they are good people that suffered but survived and will be ok. Because I did and I'm still standing strong. Thank you so much for leaving your thoughts on this piece.

[Fran Marie]

to forget is human to forgive
is divine ..you also forgive
yourself when we forgive others
we all have our vices it's when
they outweigh the virtues we
should try to improve our ways

Nice Work Carlos

[Carlos Lorenzo Estrada]

Thank you Fran. Forgiveness much like love is one of our better human virtues. To forgive the indiscretions of your abuser or even an enemy is such a divine quality to have. Those like Gandhi, MLK, and others have proven this throughout history. These are the qualities of our better angels and higher humanity. Thank you for the wonderful comment.

[Shelley Warner]

Carlos, that was beautiful. It's like your dad's apology. I loved reading the author's note that he did ask for forgiveness and that you gave it. He needed that and so did you. I like poetry that talks about life's experiences.

[Carlos Lorenzo Estrada]

Thank you Shelley for your kind thoughts on this poem. I too so enjoy poetry and stories that speak of life experiences. I feel we write at our best the things we are familiar with and have experience on. I so love writing that has the reader thinking or is emotive and stirs within the heart. I want to the Journey to feel real or have an emotional impact or profound thought. We can all empathize with the human experience. Forgiveness is one such journey that many can take to heart and understand because it requires our best selves in order to accomplish. Love is our better nature. Love is the sea and Forgiveness a river. Thank you so much again for your thoughts and conversation.

[Tania Mo]

Sometimes we kill others to rise within ourselves. Vices seem quite human the way you write here. I like this a lot.

[Carlos Lorenzo Estrada]

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this poem Tania. This piece is very much an emotive one. It was my intent to look at the abusive nature through the eyes of the abuser. It was my hope to capture why the do what they do. This was very difficult to write because I had to reflect on the abuse I went through with my father. There is a poem I wrote here called "Forgive" that describes those days. This to me would be the prequel of sorts to that writing. Thank you for your thoughts and also I very much enjoy your writing as well.