The Review Club Forum Perfection and Writing Novels ..

So I want to talk about method, for anybody that's still listening. Talking about method sure is more entertaining than talking about technique. By method I mean, music or not. Morning or midnight. Anything about HOW you write, how you whip that muse into shape, how you get from 1 word to 100k (s**t, I don't know, and I have gotten to 100k, just happens, I guess. I suck for not having an answer).

And here's a quote for all of you frustrated with getting through a first novel and how hard and terrible it seems to you.

"Think about this in your own life, even if you're not using clay. The more you practice, the better you'll get. But you can't practice if you think only of perfection. Practice is about making mistakes; perfection comes from imperfection."
Penelopy Trunk (a woman not a fiction writer, but, from what I can tell, has made a rather lucrative living out of blogging)

So that means write that first novel and let it be fucked.

-cc

Method. hmmm. Okay. I have to be alone - at night - with a clear head (if I'm too tired, I can forget about it). If there's music on, it has to be instrumental (lyrics distract me).

The most fluid writing comes when one of my characters 'shows up' and begins telling the story. I sit at the keyboard and take dictation, many times my eyes closed, my fingers flying across the laptop.

Then, there are the times (like now) when I'm mired neck deep in viscous muddy words, none of them willing to move. Grrrr. So, I take baby steps - a paragraph - a scene - and don't push it. Usually the reason I'm stuck is that my subconscious is trying to figure out something. When that gets done - pow! I'm off to the races again.

I agree wholeheartedly about the first novel. As proud as I was when I published my first one, I'd probably cringe all the way through it now. But, perfecting the craft is exactly what happens. You get better. You learn more. You develop your own style and voice. And, you learn to recognize crapola when you hear it - in reviews and in getting 'advice' from friends.

By the way - I'm glad to be with this group!

Like Belle, a lot of my method seems akin to channeling. The characters definitely create the story. I suppose I create the characters, but they really take on lives and wills of their own -- even those I begin by considering minor make their influence felt, and can become major. Dialogue is the place where it happens. I hear and see interactions whole, like watching a movie, and situations develop.

I think about my stories constantly, in every spare moment -- commuting, doing the dishes, taking a shower, doing any relatively mindless work. I think about things that may never show up on the page, but enrich the characters or the world they live in.
I write things down in black and white composition books -- snatches of dialogue, passages of description, outlines of scenes or chapters, timelines, etc. I compose pages of notes in Word, too, and sometimes notes take off into scenes that I can copy and paste into the manuscript. This happens in my composition books too, but I don't much like that, because it means transcribing, and I can barely read my own handwriting.

I work in the midst of distractions, mostly. A husband, five children, a Labrador retriever -- it's hard to find solitude, even late at night. I can put on headphones, but that's imperfect isolation. The story itself provides the solitude, I guess.

I play music that fits the cultures of my settings. Scandinavian, Russian, and Finnish music for Vaaseli; Western European Renaissance for Ravella; Middle Eastern, African and Mediterranean for Albrahar; Tibetan chant or Indian for Xanthia. I give myself a soundtrack.

I really do think of my stories like movies, I guess. Exposition allows for different kinds of philosophizing and psychologizing, but essentially I think fiction should be dramatized, so my writing is at least metaphorically cinematic.

The single most important method is in my brain entirely -- the gift of tapping into "negative capability" (I've quoted this before in the forum -- it's John Keats):
". . . the ability to be in uncertainties, mysteries, and doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact or reason."

In that condition, even when it's hard work, storytelling and poeting are always a pleasure.

I love this thread. I'm too anal to just let it be I have to hold control of the story -- perhaps I need to let go and let the story roll along as it wants, no matter what I want it to be. I'm always fighting and struggling to keep the characters and story going where I want it to go.

Something I started to do in the last month or so is looking at first novel award winners, just to see what they did and how they handled their first novels, i.e., Tash Aw and Yann Martel. What I find is that many of your writings are as good as theirs, so what was it that sparked interest in their first novel? Usually, it something unusual -- voice or structure, or something. Of course one can get overanalytical about that too, but that's why I do what I do.

Ha! Anyways, thanks for making me think on it.

I should also mention that I work in stretches -- a week of every waking hour I can spare, a week with nothing. Mostly, I can't listen to music except as a dull roar. I will leave the piece on the screen, write a bit, walk away for an hour, come back add another line, walk away, come back write a bit more, and keep at it while fresh. I mostly write at night, which is wreaking havoc on my life -- writing until 1 or 2 am usually -- then off to work in am. But I have to write at night. I can't write when the sun's out -- Ugh!

Rob

Excellent thread cc.

Here's my game plan. When the words are coming, I crank up a specific artist that I have worked out for the novel. And I type. I type until I run out of words. Then, I go back and reread the scene, but do not edit it. I simply see if I can catch that vibe again. And I write. So I get 400 words, or 4000. Anytime I am moving a story forward, I feel good about writing.

Now, when I am struggling. I don't push too hard.

I agree with many of the insights posted, the letting the character and story work itself out in my subconscious. But, I think it's also important to control that process as well. Blind adherence to whatever crazy stuff my subconscious comes up with would lead to rambling, insane manifestos....hmmm....maybe that explains Julie's 100 Ways to Take Over the Government...

If it's okay I'd like to add a few questions: How do you plot? Do you outline or start at word one? How much do you write a day? In words and hours.

And more importantly, what steps have you completed on the quest toward publication? Have you queried an agent? A publisher? Have you hired an editor? Self-published? Do you have an agent? Have you ever had a ms requested by an agent or publisher? What were the results? In my opinion, these things are overlooked by writers, but they are the path to publication.

Julie

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In answer to these "few" questions, for those of you that don't know....

Sometimes I plot, sometimes I don't. I've started and finished a novella with as little as one image, but have a novel I'm working on now that was completely plotted, arc and all. Usually somewhere in between. I like to plan 3-6 chapers ahead.

Sometimes I write nothing a day. Law school and marriage is like that. If I get to really have a writing day, anywhere from 5-10k. More normally, somewhere in the 1-3k range.

And publication process. Bunch of queries out now. Nope, never to the full ms stage, but I've just started, so cross your damn fingers for me, huh?

-cc

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I have hired three different editors. The first worked on my first novel. While she had her strong points, she argued with me over the most mundane things - mostly cultural (she's from CT and I'm from TX). So, rather than waste my time on describing a Denver omlet, I had to let her go. My second editor disappeared on me, which is a crying shame, because he was the best. He knew structural and grammatical rules as well as had an eagle eye for plot and character development.

The third, and current, editor is good on the structure and grammar, but not so hot on the plot and character development, which is the input I crave. *sigh*

I go to bookfairs from time to time (as money and time permit). At my last one, a few weeks ago, a book buyer from Hastings approached me with the offer to put my books in some of his regional stores (he buys for 22 states). You better believe I sent him copies ASAP. It will take a few weeks to process on his end, so I hope the news is good.

I also sent one of my novels to be presented at the BookExpo in NYC this June. I've never done that before, so am very interested to see if anything comes of it.

At one point, I hired a publicist. Spent lots of money for mixed results. I got some good professional reviews out of it, but none of them translated into sales.

I also hire a book cover illustrator. I've used the same one on all three novels and already have a clear picture for the fourth. The cover is one of the most important elements of the book. It will get people to pick it up and take a look. As a matter of fact, that's what the Hastings rep told me. My covers induced him to walk over and look closer. *grin*

I gave up with queries to publishers and agents. It's like winning the lottery. A lot of people are deserving, but so few actually hit the jackpot. Instead, I do my best to present a professionally written, edited and formatted book in spite of the POD stigma. I've developed a small fan base and, with time, I'm sure that will grow. I also sell through my website - again professionally presented and maintained.

There are so many elements to consider on the self-published route, but I love the entire process. ::cool::

Self-publishing is brave, Belle, but it seems like you've got the flair for self-promotion.

I missed a question. I have never hired an editor, because, well, I am an editor, so that seems just a little bit silly. (Of course, the great joke is that I'm a better editor for everyone else than myself, but what can you do.)

-cc

I think fellow writers are the best editors when it comes to characterization, plot, etc. And readers who have a critic's sensibility. I really believe writers need to learn the grammatical editing skills themselves, and not count on someone else to fix their manuscripts.
A community is necessary to real writing.
On the control issue -- of course the creator has to have control -- and I can see where some people might have the ability to think of everything in advance and make it work. But if I waited to begin writing until I had a plot outlined, characters fully developed, etc. I'd never start.
All the things I've started since "completing" my first novel began with dialogue, and the stories wove themselves around a crucial interaction. Most of the development of the first one happened that way. And that definitely just "comes" to me. Even during the years when I didn't have the guts to write I had characters chatting away to each other now and then.
One of the things that kept me from writing was the fear of the unknown.
But writing that way definitely requires a lot of revision. Less as I practice more, but it will always mean tossing some things out. The note-making helps cut down on that process.

My 9 to 5 is very mentally draining. I simply cannot write well doing the week. I can however find inspiration on breaks or drives to and from work, which I usually try and write down. I try to write each night between 9:30 and 10. Rarely succeed.

Now when the weekend hits I wake up raring to go. I get out 3 to 5 k with ease. And I usually am able to work in some of the crap I wrote during my brain dead evenings.

Time my friends, time. My muse never sleeps she just can't get an appointment to see me that often.

One thing that is probably worth mentioning that hasn't been discussed is diet. I find that I often here my muse between meals. Also while I write I try to keep my stomach at a near empty level. If I have lunch I usually wait an hour or two before I start up. Or else I'm just too lethargic to really type like I care.

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Here's a little shameless promotion for cc. She's my editor, and I have NEVER seen a better one. She fixes the little grammar issues, fixates on the story holes, and keeps me real in character development and plotting.

If left on my own, I'd be comma abusive and be limited to he/she said.

Belle: Congrats on the man's interest in placing your books. Self-publishing is a hard road, and anyone who does it successfully deserves kudos.

I usually write when I have quiet time. My husband either works at home or out of town, so when he is gone, I will get the kids off to school and write from then until I go to bed at night. When my husband is around, I don�t get a lot done. I�ll end up staying up until 3 or 4 in the morning so I can get a few hours of writing done, since we share an office and he plays Howard Stern all day and night and I don�t get any quiet time. Sometimes when I am strongly focused, I�ll put on earphones and listen to music to drown out the talk radio, since it completely distracts me.

Usually the ending of a story comes to me first. When an ending comes to me, I work my way through several ideas of how to get there. They come to me while, cleaning, working out, when I�m falling asleep, or anytime that my mind isn�t focused on something else. The best time is when I take my morning walks. I�m with Leah, conversations between the characters is usually what comes to me first. Once I have a general idea of how the story will progress. I sit down and write it all out by hand. After that, I make an outline of all the plotlines, whose POV, where the scenes take place, what the point of the scene is, and most recently, I started adding in theme ideas into the outline. After that is done, I start writing it all on the computer from scratch. When I finish the first draft, I edit and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite�.

When I have quiet time, I end up writing about 2k -3k words a day or a full chapter. I�ll go weeks without writing anything though, because I�ll get distracted. But when I start writing a book, I focus on nothing else until I write �the end.� It usually takes about a month of straight writing and then a few months of finding and fixing problem sections.

Music inspires me quite a bit in my writing. I usually find a song that fits a scene perfectly and then play it over and over to keep the same feel through the whole thing. My characters have theme songs and so do the books. For example; One of Peter�s theme songs is Crawling by Linkin Park. The second book in the series is called Bring Me to Life after the song by Evanescence. I used the song Stellar by Incubus as background music for the characters first �date.� Having songs that fit the characters and scenes helps me to stay in character and keep a steady feel.

What steps have I gotten through? Back in November, I sent out 8 or 9 queries to agents. I didn�t go overboard, because I wanted to get True Light wrapped up before I started to really push the books. Out of those queries, six came back rejection. One came back as wanting sample chapters and an outline. It�s been a couple weeks since that happened, and I�m still waiting to hear back. A small publisher found the first few chapters of True Light on Urbis and offered to publish it. I decided against it because the deal wasn�t much better than self-publishing.


Oh and Anthony. I don't write well on an empty stomach, because I get light headed.

This is a great thread. And I have to throw out a good word for cc too. There's really two people who've taught me to write, and cc's one of them. The other works for the Asian Wall street Journal (or at least she did last time I talked to her).

Okay so when do I write? All of the time. I work in a call center, so I end up doing a lot of writing in notebooks between phone calls. (Most of Crimson and Gray has been written that way and quite a few of my short stories.) I tend to then copy them out onto the computer at night after I get off work. I do it if I'm tired/hungry/full/having a bad day. Generally, I push myself to write all of the time. (Really this comes from my reporter days, when the story had to be in even if I was falling down sick, or drop dead tired).

As far as novel writing, well I'm still working through my first one. Albeit slower than I want to. I only got back into writing in December. I hadn't really written consistently for about four years and I hadn't written fiction for about seven. (There's a long story about that, but I won't bore anyone with the trivial details)

I can use music, but more often then not I don't. Because it tends to distract me from what I'm doing. Or I don't end up listening to it, so it doesn't really make a difference.

Generally I don't feel like I'm channelling the characters. I do sometimes feel like I'm there and if I'm writing in first person I find myself talking like my characters (Now hows that for creepy). Anyways that's enough of me rambling.

I think the reasons people stop writing are as interesting as the reasons they write, especially if they start again.

I've blamed being too busy with living for my hiatus, but that's not the whole story. Mostly it was fear, fear of the unknown, and fear of failure. When I was a student of "literature" I couldn't see how I'd ever measure up. I wanted to write admirable short stories, slice-of-life stuff that would illuminate contemporary psychology and major philosophical themes. I was a snob. I forgot that the reason I'd always written as a child and teenager was amusement. I forgot that my imaginary friends were friends worth having.

The tipping point came for me when I realized that I was really unhappy, in spite of having great kids, a loving husband, solid religious faith, good health, etc. I even liked my job, pretty much. But there was something missing. I started taking classes on-line to get a masters in education, to go back to teaching grammar and composition at the community college level (figuring the academic snobbism wouldn't be so oppressive, while the students would be more motivated than high-schoolers) and found out that I could at least write decent academic prose on demand. Working at a bookstore provided the ever-present reminder that an awful lot of pure junk gets published, and sells, and my brain made the connection. I should try fiction again -- a novel. One of my problems with short stories had always been keeping the focus -- I always knew way more about my characters than I could fit into a few thousand words. I was interested in the possibilities of fantasy for exploring religious and political conflict, and I came up with a premise. Wrote a 300,000 word epic in nine months without the least idea of what I was doing -- at least not until I got down to the last 100,000 words or so. No readers, no feedback.

That brings me to the other reason I took so long to start writing again. I've always enjoyed fantasy (several of my first childhood compositions were about dragons) and I married a literary snob who despises genre fiction. We still have words about the subject at least weekly. I let my husband's opinions stifle me for many years, but I don't back down anymore. Story-telling is story-telling, and that's what I'm doing. I still don't ask him to read what I write, though. He's read some, and thinks I'm wasting my talent.

Now story-telling has all but taken over my life. Playing with my imaginary friends again.

I started posting excerpts of "The Seduction" on my now-moribund blog a little over a year ago, and last June one of my readers suggested I check out urbis. It's been great to get feedback, especially the tough kind. I've learned more in the last year about what makes stories work than I did in the 8 years or so I was a paying university student. Not so much about style and such, but about the mechanics of plot, point of view, pacing, etc. Style and usage I've picked up from reading good writing of all kinds -- and I learned the rules of English grammar formally. But I've had many excellent critics of all manner of backgrounds on-line who really understood how to make a story move and generate interest in characters. I don't know if you can get that kind of training in academic creative writing programs -- the few such classes I've had didn't impress me.

Thank heavens for on-line communities like this one, is all I can say.

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You and me both, Cam. Probably because we are both relatively new into the writing thing. I hadn't popped out a single word since about 1990-91, until last summer when I got the urge to write again. I don't feel I'm channeling as much as shaping or forming the clay. Maybe the more I'm at it, the more it'll come as channeling. I hope so.

I'll tell ya ... you guys have taught me so much about my own writing. I appreciate all the insights. Now, will you write my novel for me? I've been procrastinating ... avoiding. I will get back to it now that I think I know what to do.

I also started to carry around a little note pad to write excerpts in -- just a few words, and I have a few smaller note book/diaries I have around too, where I enter scenes. I prefer to just stare blankly at the blank screen ... hoping for a dribble of words.

Cam ... I think your novel is going to be interesting. Very mysterious and suspenseful.

Ok ... I'll stop now.

Rob, I feel you. You're a lawyer. I'm about to be a lawyer in denial. God, I don't know how you find time or energy now.

And Leah, I feel you, and you aren't a sellout, and you deserve all the support in the world for writing what you love instead of continuing to chase that literary/academic smarter than thou rat race. Some people are good at it. Some people, like us, want to write genre because it rocks, even if we can write "literary." We come from very similar academic backgrounds, you know....

-cc

That is some amazing will power. To be able to reread your work and not attack it with the editing ink!

Hey Rob-

Thanks for the compliment. Hey just for a wierd piece of trivia, your story Barney Rubble Blues was actually the first story I reviewed when I got onto Urbis. Now how's that for irony.

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I don't know if it's important how we feel like we're writing. Just that we are. But then again I come from the far too pragmatic school of thought. :) I mean a lot of people will argue things like you need talent to write. Or you don't need talent. In fact I got an idea/inspiration book that has four or five contradictory things people have said that you need to write. I think what's important (at least for me at this stage) is what works for you. Because in the end everyone is going to experience it differently.

But I'm rambling... hope I didn't offend anyone :)

Cameron