The Review Club Forum Discussion of Leah's Not Yet T..

CC --

Thanks for the thoughtful review.

I understand what you mean by leading with action -- but not every novel does that; many of my favorites certainly don't. I think there's room for fiction that's more descriptive, thoughtful, introspective, perhaps, even in today's marketplace. I have to be true to my own intentions.

This began as a character study, and as such I sank myself pretty deeply in Timu's PoV. He really does have the vocabulary I use, and the 'torture' is his feeling -- not really meant literally, but somewhat ironically, like most teenage exageration.

Switching PoV was not something I really understood a year ago, when I first wrote this. So I've been aware of the problem with Magus Soren for awhile. I was sort of hoping someone would have a suggestion when I posted it 'as is' here, but in the meantime I've come up with my own.

Soren isn't very important to Timu, so he's not very important in the narrative.

Brant is not important, except to represent what you noted. The PoV in the section with him and Rilsa is supposed to be Rilsa's, and I do need to tighten it.

Luomi too is just a representative of all the boorish students Timu has to cope with. He has a couple of other brief appearances, but he's not important in and of himself -- not to Timu, and therefore not to the reader.

Rilsa and Brant are not having an affair, per se, which will be discussed later. She's not just 'a bit' loose -- she's practically a sex addict. Unfortunately some hints at that are in the bit of the chapter I had to cut off to satisfy the word count restrictions of the group.

I've had more disputes about Timu's attitude toward sex in this group than in the dozens of other reader responses I've been exposed to. Since sexual mores are a main theme in this story, and those that follow it, this is significant. Maybe strict attitudes to sexuality are becoming too rare for Timu to seem plausible. I hope not.
His own family is very strict on these matters, and he himself is so isolated from other people that sex just hasn't been a personal issue for him before now. I explain some of this in the next chapter, but I think the indication that he's very familiar with animal sexual reproduction, and views Rilsa and Brant in that context, is enough to go with for the first chapter. The lovers don't get naked -- her skirts are pulled up, and Brant exposes enough to get on with business -- it is very mechanical, not very passionate. Not very good sex. If it had been, maybe Timu would have been more interested. He does notice her bosom, when she moves toward the rabbits. These things build up slowly.
The last bit of the chapter alludes to his reactions after his confrontation with Rilsa, and it becomes clear that she was doing more than being kind to a boy and defending him from her boorish companion.

I'm thinking I might need to clarify Timu's age a bit sooner -- I don't really get to it till the end of the second chapter.

I'm definitely working on sentence structure, to make it more acceptable to contemporary taste, as clear as possible, but still consistent with setting, character, themes, etc.

Well, that's all I can think of -- your review was really thorough, so I'll probably be revisiting it more than once as I pursue revision.

Thanks again.

Leah

Leah,

I'm glad you found it helpful. A few things -

You don't have to explain yourself to me. You're the writer, and it's your story, and my perceptions are just one in a sea of many others. I'd note that if you have gotten several comments from others on a similar issue, that may be something to pay particular attention to. I always take that as telling me that the response transcends subjective.

The problem is, however, with explanation in general. I can only presume that you want to publish this work. If that isn't your goal, feel free to ignore the rest of this paragraph. When you submit this, you won't be able to explain it. You won't have a chance to qualify it. All you'll have is the requested sample size, which may be this small (I've had an agent ask for 5 pages), or simply the query letter. Unless you get a request for more, you won't ever speak to the agent or editor. If the first five pages don't make sense without explanation, you won't get that request for more. I'm not saying yours don't, because, mostly they do, but it's something to remember when readers comment. Dozens of readers may have had a particular response, but only ONE reader matters - that agent or editor - and you have to make sure that all plausible explanations are covered. Same with the leading with action. Again, I admire your desire to not cater to the market and to tell a story with time and patience, but you must hook that one, all important reader FAST, first page FAST. It sucks, I agree, but you have to find a way to come out with a bang. The book market is changing around us and it isn't a great time to be an author - this is an ADHD generation. After you sell a few, have relationships in the industry, you can slow down.

As for the balance between contemporary and the world you want, keep at it. I think it's an admirable goal.

Timu and sex... my point was that whatever his intellectual response is likely to be, he's a 16 year old boy. He's going to have a physical/hormonal response, if he's human. It's biology, and I think that may be where the readers are getting a disconnect. If he's never had any experience, I think the gut response would be stronger, because he has no experience controlling himself. (Maybe as women we forget how easily men are ruled by that part of their anatomy. ::cool:: )

Best of luck on your revisions.

-cc

I know it's going to take a particular kind of agent to recognize what I'm trying to do, and a particular kind of publisher to go for it, too. That doesn't trouble me. I have another project in the works that goes to action much more directly. That may end up being my first published novel. But who knows? Sometimes it's just a matter of luck -- sometimes it's connections. I know being conventional gets a story published more easily, in many cases, but it seems to me that often makes for a mediocre story. That's most of the reason I don't read a lot of contemporary fiction, especially fantasy.

When I read I don't necessarily want all my expectations immediately gratified -- I want to think in new directions. For a reader like me, if questions arise about why Timu responds as he does, that might be a spur to read further. And reading further does provide explanation. I put it much more delicately in the story, of course, but Timu has masturbated quite a bit, when younger, and he has thought about girls -- but he's already become focused on what he wants to do with his mind, and made the decision that sex isn't all that important, and the girls he knows are either too silly or too serious to get involved with -- his moral upbringing won't permit him to opt for sex only for pleasure right off. It'll be a struggle. The struggle begins as soon as Rilsa looks him in the eye and touches his hand.

I've got four sons, two of whom have already gone through puberty, and I know that everyone's different, and upbringing has a lot to do with sexual response.
I think I'm modeling a lot about Timu on my oldest son, in fact. Timu may be unusual, but he's not unnatural. I want him to be unusual, because he has to be a real hero several times in the course of his life, the kind capable of genuine self-sacrifice. He has serious flaws in his character, but they're what he builds on when his life makes demands on him.

I'm considering all these questions about Timu's psychology very carefully.

Just to let you know, I have no problem with the sex. The scene worked for me. I liked the juxaposition you used with Timu looking at the coupling between people and anmials.

I've already got some flak because of my piece and the father being naked before his adolescent son. That is something missing in fantasy that needs to be addressed. It's time to pull fantasy out of the closet and let the characters have some fun! :-)

I think most of my readers here wanted even more sex -- at least more of an immediate response from Timu -- probably partly because of the title of the damned thing.

There's more than one kind of seduction going on, though, as I noted in an earlier comment.

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Since you want fantasy to be "out of the closet" - Mercedes Lackey has a series with a homosexual protagonist... if you like Mercedes Lackey....

Alright, CC, I am going to have to come out and spank you for that!

My play of words was not specifically about gay issues. Argh! All too many writers seem to want to follow the formula and be Victorian. Agreed, unlike most authors, I will have gay characters. But that is not my point.

A good example is the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. Started off as a good idea but quickly became a large pile of steaming crap. But he followed the formula. No sex. Like HELLO! To have a world populated, there must be at least one or two people humping.

What I liked that Leah did was not make is salicious or stand out. A couple would, especially since one is married, would go off to a secluded place to have a little fun.

And to address Leah's point, ARGH! When I saw the title, I didn't not see anything sexual about seduction. Power is seductive. Drugs are seductive. Book stores are seductive, well for me.

I applaud Leah is having the scene. It was refreshing for me. As I hope people will feel as Tangled Threads evolves. Sex is an important aspect of human and non-human interaction yet all too many fantasies shy away from it.

You made the closet reference - not I. ::tongue:: And, on a disparate note, there are plenty of "fantasy" novels with sex in them. Lackey is only one of them (yes, she has straight characters that have sex too - I'm not proud of knowing this, but I was, in fact, a teenage girl once that read terrible fantasy). Another one, and a much better one, is R. Scott Bakker. There's also that genre of vampire fantasy that is full of sex - Laurell K. Hamilton any one? Her characters are known for f*****g like bunnies.

-cc

Oh, don't get me going on Laurell K. Hamilton! First of all, she doesn't do fantasy. It is more an alternate Earth scenario, aka Buffy and that stuff. She had a great idea to start with but completely lost it, like Anne Rice. I loved the Anita character but things got so stupid, as you say f*****g like bunnies. And her slide into S&M just got dumb. Another example of a writer who had a good idea but doesn't know when to stop and got caught up in her own hype.

What I am talking about is more traditional fantasy. What Leah and I'm trying to do. Not alternate Earth stuff. We are looking at creating a "new" world, not related to what currently exists. Our worlds are of our own creation, not connected to the current world. Or as Tolkien called "sub-creating".

For me, fantasy is creating a different realm which does mirror our current world and issues but is fantastic. Like Lord of the Rings, The Neverending Story, The Cold Fire Trilogy, The Thomas Covenant Trilogy, The Chronicle of Naria, Wheel of Time series, etc. etc.

These are stories that use folklore and mythology to create a "new" world. A place of imagination that does not exist and cannot exist. St. Louis ala Laurell K. Hamilton is a what if. Like Anne Rice with overly long vampire and witch crap.

Save the Covenant series, nary an aspect of sex. Even a hint. That is my point. As to Mercedes, I haven't read her stuff, so I can't say. For me, people who write fantasy seem to want to make things pristine and vaulted because of a formula. Which is one reason I think the genre is hurting. And one never knows, Leah and I may change things. :-)

Hey, I don't like Laurell anymore than you do, Loekie. I was teasing. I know what kind of fantasy you write. Go read Bakker. You'll like him.

-cc

What I like about fantasy as a genre is the potential for looking at things that make people nervous, like religion, sex, and politics, outside of the old categories. If it's a sub-creation where all this stuff is happening, it isn't so threatening.

First, CC. Be careful when you tease a Scorpio!

Now, Leah, I agree 110%. In my stuff, I am dealing with aspects of religion, sexuality, abuse, etc. etc. Being in a fantasy world, people are disarmed. It is not the real world, so important issues can be addressed without too much of a backlash.

What pisses me off is I walk into a book store and see rows & rows of generic shite. People don't try to create their own world. They don't take the time. They use cookie cutter templates, change the names and maybe throw in something different like a centaur. They don't try. They don't have an opinion. They have nothing to say.

I suspect you are like me. When organizing your environment, you do some research. You want to have a consistent world. Similar but different. You want people to get wrapped up in your world and enjoy the stay, even when things get dark.

Even with my points, I can see it in your writing. And I am the kind of reviewer when I see something that has potential, I am harder. Because I want to see it out there. When you start to get reviews from me that is a paragraph or two, then be worried.

Ask Julie, she had me on board for her book Dope. Sick. Love. Even when it was a good chapter, I still nitpicked, whined and stomped my feet petulantly. And I think I helped in a small way.

So, Leah, I'm here for the long run. Even if the new chapters aren't part of my reading cycle, I will check them out. With Julie and Kim, I had the pleasure of getting to the end of their book and give a little to help them improve it. And when you guys get published, I can proudly say I was there, part of the gestation.

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Ok I'm really glad you brought that up. I was getting worried. I mean since Covenant rapes a woman in the first 80 pages of Lord Foul's Bane. Although I can't quite go there with you entirely. For every one of your examples I can think of counter examples. The Farseer Trilogy, The Still, Mordant's Need (yes I know another Donaldson series), Wizards First Rule, etc.

Now I certainly don't mind the idea of sex in a fantasy setting. That's great. In fact it's wonderful, but I'd hardly say it's a brand spanking new idea. Remember Covenant was started in 1977.

In some ways you cement my point. Donaldson does effective use sex in some of his stuff. But as you point out, that was back in 1977. We are now 2007.

I was just joking with my friend and roommate Errol about this point. It seems the publishers want fantasy aimed to young kids, so no sex or D&D geeks who aren't getting it and don't want to read about characters getting it. :-)

You may be right. I dunno. I tend to think in a lot of fantasy it isn't necessarily important to the story. Granted I'm not a big Jordan fan and try as I might I can't really get into George R.R. Martin's stuff (even though it is better than most stuff out there). So I tend to read a lot of the fantasy that is on the fringes, so it just might be that I'm not the mainstream fantasy reader. Anyways I don't suppose it matters and since I'm on pain medicine I can't form a coherent argument anyway :)