The Review Club Forum Discussion of Leah's Not Yet T..

This is the place to respond to reviews and for further discussion of Leah's Not Yet Titled: Part One - The Seduction of Timu Maarinen, Chapter One (pt. 1)

Bill:

Well, it's good to hear from you about my work again. I've been wondering if your views would be colored by what you know of Timu's later life, in Compelling, but it seems you've retained what I might call a naive judgment.

I have to say that on most of your suggestions for rephrasing I must respectfully disagree. Most, not all. In terms of point of view issues this is a first draft, but I've crafted most of the language very carefully, over many re-readings, over more than a year's time. You did spot a couple of things I'd missed, and a couple that had continued to trouble me, where your insights will certainly be valuable.

Point of view is one of my main concerns in this piece. I was a point of view virgin when I wrote it. I'm much more sophisticated now.I know I slip with Magus Soren, and I want to find a way to fix that. The longer shift, to Brant and Rilsa, I find acceptable. It is less limited third person than I'm trying to employ in Compelling -- though even there I use brief segments of relative omniscience.

But the bulk of Seduction is squarely in Timu's point of view, and I think the changes in his character are reflected in the changes in that PoV. He is a rather naive young man throughout, though he's beginning to wise up by the start of "Lady Aulia's Choice", the second "half" of the book. He's a boy living a life he doesn't like -- like most adolescents -- and he isn't 100% truthful all the time, though he has essential integrity -- and yes, high ideals. One of the things that interests me is the contrast and conflict between Timu's perceptions of himself, and other people's perceptions of him.

The plot in this particular story is concerned almost exclusively with espionage and intrigue, without any overt swordplay, though there's some physical danger and plenty of fairly discreetly described sexual encounters. It's more like John Le Carre, perhaps, than Patrick O'Brien.

I think that you probably understand what the psychology of the natural spy might be, and I wonder if you think I'm portraying it accurately in Timu.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling with a thoughtful review. I look forward to benefiting further from your insights.

Kim:

Thanks for the review. I do want to have specific awkward sentences pointed out to me -- sorry if I gave you the impression of ungraciousness about such things in the Old Days. I have tried to get things under control in this piece -- it's about a year since I wrote the first draft, and I've gone over it many times to pick just the right words, construct the sentences just so, etc. But it takes an outside view to see some things -- that's what we're here for, right? Of course I may end up not agreeing with you -- it's a matter of suiting style to subject, partly. This is a Renaissance/Victorian world, and the themes of the story are philosophical and political, so the language is going to reflect that, not be as rapid-fire as contemporary adventure.

I'm a little puzzled about the point concerning "had" "is" "was" etc. Sometimes those verbs are necessary, but I try to use more active constructions whenever possible.( "Had" will be unavoidable when past perfect tense is required, which it often is when characters reflect on their experience.) So if you could point out specific places where I use weak verbs, I'd really appreciate it.

I appreciate all thoughtful criticism -- if your reasons convince me, I'll definitely adapt.

Okay, I'll go through it tomorrow with a finer tooth comb. I just didn't want to offend, since last time I did that, you didn't seem to like it. I will say that your writing has improved quite a bit since last time I read anything of yours. I found it more focused and the story to move along at better pace.

I have not seen Kim's review and this does not address her at all; and I am too ready for bed to speak about the spy's psychology.

I only want to say that I'll be interested to see how many had's and was's people will suggest I cut in my piece. I hope they will notice that much of the time I am speaking about the past, and if one cuts those very valuable words from such areas, reader will begin to think the activity of the piece is in present time, a fatal mistake.

I found many writers at Urbis try to follow every bromide they've ever heard, without understanding the practical consequences of doing so.

I follow the rules of English grammar and usage -- been trained in them, and have taught them -- more effectively than most teachers, I like to think. I know sometimes I let sentence structure get out of control -- according to contemporary taste, anyhow. I'm willing to compromise. I won't abandon past perfect tense, where it's required, however, which I think is what Bill is talking about.

Everyone has lapses, however. Lapses into passive voice are anathema to me -- so if I commit them, I want to know. There's also a gray area, that isn't strictly passive voice, but is less active than the many marvelous verbs in the English language allow -- and that too I wish to avoid. The more active my language is the better, because my stories themselves are not particularly action-packed. All help to this end is greatly appreciated.

Jean:

Thanks for your review.

You're dead right about shrugging shoulders.

The rabbit had -- it's the past perfect tense, and as the convention for fiction narrative is simple past, it's sometimes needed, to indicate something that's happened previously. In this case, the making of the nest preceded Timu's (and the reader's) observation of it. I try to follow the rules of English grammar, not vague rules of thumb.

I sympathize with your thing about names. I have a similar problem, and it may be part of the reason I don't read a lot of fantasy, though I write it. I base my names in "our world" languages -- Vaaselian is based in Finnish, because the culture resembles Finnish/Russian culture.

The telepathic powers are a bit complex. It's a code of honor in the school not to use them to cheat. Stupid really, but codes of honor of that kind generally are. If you read on, the mechanics of the telepathy here will only be revealed very gradually and sublty. I'm taking the PoVs of the characters, and this is all second nature to them, so they don't think about it very explicitly. (I do have it all worked out in my head though.)

Timu has a bit of a temper -- many sixteen year old boys do -- I've got four boys, so I know. The hand to the knife is mainly a gesture. He really cares about the rabbits though.

Dear Leah,

Nothing is worse than reviewers who seem to be reviewing something other than what is on the pages they are presented. Therefore, even having read so much of Timu, here I pretend I am experiencing him for the first time. I want to see what the reader will see when he brings your book home, not knowing of any others, and begins to read.

I understand as to my suggestions. You have looked at every line dozens of times, whereas I have just seen them.

As to POV, I am surprised you are concerned about the Magnu "lapse."

Quote:


Why is this considered a POV shift at all? As my above quote states, this is the narrator speaking, and as I have said more than once lately, anything a person orally telling a story could say to his campfire audience, the narrator should be able to say to readers. Especially I am thinking of such things as are readily observable. The above example is not so much about Magnu's specific thoughts, as about what narrator is imparting that reader might better understand the story.

What I understand of the spy psychology I have mostly learned observing Stephen Maturin, my favorite O'Brian character. Above all he can compartmentalize what he can and cannot share with others, and is capable of maintaining control of his emotions and his tongue. He is knowledgable in codes, and especially in reading individuals. He is discrete, always.

Okay, Kim, I just read your last review, and it was really useful.
I can definitely see your point about some of my constructions. I think I will do a little revising along those lines, and see if I can manage it without breaking the rhythm I've established, and want to keep.
Some of the "it was" sort of thing is taking place in the thoughts of the characters, however. And people do indeed think in those constructions. I've had people object to the the phrase "it looked for all the world like" as a cliche, for example, but that's what Timu's thinking. It's perfectly natural, which is definitely what I'm going for.
Of course I don't agree with you on every point, and I'm not going to detail which ones I'll adopt, and which reject.But this is just the kind of review I need.
Thank you for taking the time and trouble!

Bill,
I'm very tough with myself on PoV. I want to use a non-intrusive narrator as much as possible, with each scene filtered through only one character's consciousness. I think I was doing this without thinking about it in this piece, and because I wasn't thinking, I slipped occasionally. Another slip occurs later on, in a scene with Timu's father. Some of the sentence constructions that you and Kim have both found to be less active than they should be are a direct result of the narrator's voice being too dominant, I think. In all, though I've chosen words very carefully for both meaning and rhythm, I've paid less attention in this piece to the way sentence structure reflects PoV and meaning.
I have to ask myself constantly "Who is this narrator person, and why is he getting in the way of my seeing the story?"
Everything in the first scene of the story is something Timu is observing or can readily be aware of, except when I jump to Magus Soren's opinions. Now, considering that Timu is brilliantly telepathic, it shouldn't be too much trouble to reframe that so that it's plausible within the limits of his consciousness. I just didn't take the trouble to do that.

No problem Leah. I'm glad you found it helpful.

Thank you, Anthony, for the review.

It seems I'm collecting items to remove -- unnecessary tags, conjunctions, prepositions, etc. With your help and the help of the rest of the group I should be able to get this really tightened up.
It's nearly the first time anyone's been particularly tough with me on this piece, and I see I needed it.

Quote:


I'm glad you found the review helpful. I feared I had failed you. It really was well written over all and I was disappointed that I couldn't really find much I could point out. I guess I'm just used to urbis and writers in the beginning stages of writing. One thing is for sure there is plenty of talent in this group and you are fitting right in. Now me on the other hand, I think Julie is going to pop in any day and give me the boot�lol

Anyways good to be reviewing you again, Anthony

Quote:


No way! Anthony rocks! I will agree that we do have some damn fine writers. Thanks to everybody for making this group a great workshopping tool.

Julie

Gabe --
Thanks for your review --
On Timu's apparent lack of interest in what those folks are doing -- everyone is different. I have one son (now 17) who I don't believe would have ever been able to look at something like that (though he's got a healthy curiosity about sex) and another, now 14, who I'm pretty sure would look and absorb every detail.
The key for Timu is in the way the couple strike him -- like the animals he's observed coupling in the wild or on the farm all his life. It's boring because of that resemblance. He's been very strictly brought up, too. He's not innocent, exactly, but he's a bit naive about himself.
It's not a society like ours, where sex is used to sell everything. Morality at the court is very loose, but people like Timu's family are what you might perhaps call puritanical. At the same time, "country matters" are second nature to them.
He is disturbed/aroused, in immediate retrospect, once he catches Rilsa thinking sexually about him.

It's definitely for mature audiences, because of the themes, I think, as much as because of the sex, which remains quite discreet. I've let my 14 year old read it, though. Just because it starts with teenage characters doesn't make it teen fiction. The whole saga, if I live long enough to write it all, will follow Timu and other characters into middle age and beyond.

The seduction of the title occurs on many levels. Watch for parallels drawn between Rilsa and Timu's sister, Elian, for example.

From Gabalacious' review:

I think one of the the things you should work on is your character development, it feels like you want them to fit into a story that is mis-matched for the type of character. You wrote a lot of this chapter from the point of view of Timu, unfortunatly you don't capture a whole lot of his personality.

I do like how you have set up Timu's background. His family and the expectations of him in school are clear and helps develop the problems Timu has with his families opinion on who he should be. All I think the story needs is a little more development of your characters.

Well, this is only the first half of the first chapter, and Timu hasn't really interacted with very many people yet, and that's where character development comes from. So far we see that he doesn't think school is any good to him, because it's about history and politics and he's more interested in science and nature. Yet he has a philosophically and politically idealistic streak, concerned about people living in peace. He's a bit naive about sex, except as it regards animal reproduction. He's a loner, a bit socially inept, and thinks himself superior to his peers. He's very skilled in self-control, which makes him appear aloof and even a bit arrogant to others. He really doesn't know what other people think of him.

That's all in there. I think it qualifies as character development.

And there's more to come -- the whole story is character development, really, in an internal sense, if you know what I mean.

Mike:

Thanks for your review!

I'm hoping readers will take this like an opening shot in a movie. Audio of stern voice calling someone's name during close-up of birds' nest, camera pulls back to reveal Timu Maarinen slumped in his seat staring out the window. Into Timu's thoughts (there written narrative has an advantage over film) then the stern voice again, and camera pulls back to reveal the teacher and the classroom. It seems to go over okay with most readers.

I'm a firm believer in sliding as naturalistically as possible into the narrative, without stepping out like a tedious narrator and explaining everything. The reader has some questions, no doubt, but that's one reason to keep reading. I know I like to read in that active way, rather than having everything laid out for me by the writer. It's a curious mix between just absorbing, which is what you need to do to get the cinematic way the story opens, and observing carefully.

I know it might not be for everybody, but some folks like it. It seems more natural to me than more expository forms of narrative.

Leah

Hi Leah-

I'm all for a cinematic opening. And I agree that not everything has to be spelled out as a narrative in the beginning.

I guess what I'm saying is that there is a great opportunity to heighten that opening by make the contrast between Maarien's daydreaming and the magus' lecture in the classroom sharper. The finch was almost poetic in description, and the image of a bird is universal even for people who aren't into fantasy.

Where I got lost was the rush of the narrative after the daydream. I didn't understand the context of what a magus was, or to what Xanthian relations referred. In film, the viewer can absorb all of that in an instant since it is visual by nature. One shot of a magus/professor towering over the boy in a row of desks is all it takes to show that Maarien is daydreaming in class. Perhaps costumes and robes can cue the viewer of the setting even more.

But in writing, it won't happen in an instant, and some of it does have to spelled out (just enough for the reader to connect the dots in his or her head). When I was reading the opening, I kept tripping over some of the words: magus, lord, Paarin-Khan, etc. I was trying to keep track of those elements in order to paint that picture in my imagination. But that image was a little hazy for me. I imagined magus to be a preist or jedi (not so much as a teacher), and a lord as a leader/royalty (an image of a young boy did not come to mind immediately when the magus addressed him as "lord"). The finch was the only part of the opening that I readily idenified.

I hope that clarifies a little what I was saying about the beginning. I guess I was suggesting just a little more clarification of the lord and magus roles, and further description of the classroom setting...

Loekie:

The points about sentence structure aren't new to me -- and many of the things you point out I've already been revising. I think some of these issues are a matter of taste, quite frankly. And most of them have to do with the level of consistency I'm shooting for -- consistency with setting, PoV, themes, etc. And then there's the rhythms and patterns of language to consider, as well. I have to take it all under consideration, as this isn't only a spy story, though the plot follows those lines.

The PoV issue with Magus Soren is also something I was aware of, even before I posted here -- I think I was looking for suggestions on a fix -- I've come up with my own, however.

I'm a little perplexed about your interpretation of Timu's character, though. It seems to me that your description -- he seems like a 12 year old sometimes, and sometimes like an adult -- is actually quite apt, though a little limited, for an intelligent, sensitive 16 year old with rotten social skills. It's exactly what I'm trying to convey, in fact, and therefore quite believable.

His attitude to school is believable too, and sympathetic, I think. Many very intelligent young people find school disappointing, boring, even sheer torture, and it isn't always entirely their fault. That's my experience, anyway, as both a student and a teacher. Timu's reasons are quite specific. He isn't interested in politics or history, or becoming a diplomat. He's interested in mind-work and nature -- he sees himself as a scientist. The school has nothing to offer him, apart from mind-training. I make all of that quite clear, beginning in this chapter, and going forward.

The discrepancy between Magus Soren's apparent displeasure and the way he actually treats Timu in private is quite intentional too, and further elaborated, as you noted. I'm at a slight disadvantage with the length of posting -- I had to break off part of the chapter to put into a second post, and therefore not everything gets connected as I intended. You could read on to the next part, if you're interested in what I mean.

In short, apparent discrepancy and conflict are meant to be spurs to curiosity and thought on the part of the reader. I've had dozens of readers react to this in exactly that manner.

Anyway, you helped me clarify my intentions, and get an idea of how far I should go in accomadating myself to a divergent taste, so your review was quite helpful.

Thanks.

Leah

Like I always say, my reviews with a salt lick. And your favorite bottle of fire water. I know with my stuff, there will be some people who will get it and some that won't. And as Julie, Gabe and CC know from our time on Ubris, I am a hard reviewer. I shoot from the hip.

You bring up an interesting point about Timu. You say that his actions are correct and sympathetic. And I don't dispute you see it that way. But as a new reader to your stuff, i didn't.

I was one those kids who found school torture. I was bored out of my skull. But even at 12, though, I knew there was some responsibility on my part. My parents made sure I understood this. There were times I wanted to skip class. My mind wandered. So I understand what Timu is going through. But my parents allowed me to see that one had to slug through the crap to get to the gems.

My point is that as a first chapter, not enough is there for me, the reader, to sympathize with him. That is why I suggested the first chapter should just focus on Timu. Leave the bunnies and the sex for the next chapter

Let us get to know him a little more. Hint a bit more about his rebellious side. Is he being influenced by someone else? Why doesn't he really seem to care if a bad report is sent back to his father?

I'm focusing on this because these were questions that started to roil through my head and pulled me out of the piece for a bit. Agreed, I may not be the audience you are aiming for, but as we all know, the first chapter is the critical lynch pin. And the most difficult to get right. I'm still struggling with my first chapter. Ask CC, Gabe and Julie. My first chapter still sucks.

I'll get off my soap box now :-)