The Review Club Forum Discussion for Bill's War on E..

Thanks to both A.C. and Wheldon for your helpful reviews.

Neither of you were assigned the first two scenes, and so did not benefit by an explanation of how Gust obtained his shape-shifting ability, or the rules of that ability.

A.C.: Gust's focus at its height was distracted by the dog. The continuous cloud cover harkens back to Celia's repressed memories, and may not refer so much to Earth's weather as to a phenomena that separates Titanus from Earth.

Wheldon:

I'm glad you laughed, questioned, and wondered whether to believe or not. These are among the list of reactions I try to evoke in the reader. I'm also pleased to hear you think this crosses many genres. My hope is to create literature, which does not aim for any genre in particular. I think of literature as a truthful consideration of the human situation, whether on a micro or macro scale or both at once.

Most successful writers I've listened to affirm the importance of details to immersing reader in the fictive world. Wherever a general term can be made more specific, the effort should be made to do so.

Gust fears his first attempt to shape-shift because if he fails, finds he does not have the skill, that it was all wishful thinking, then he will be doomed to spend the rest of his life in isolation, and he is by nature a social being. He has been waiting 80 years for a taste of freedom, and it all hinges on the efficacy of his mental power.

With the dog, I hope reader will learn that Gust must accept some of the limitations inherent in whatever form he counterfeits. His sense of smell, his strength, and other abilities all are subsumed beneath the form until he lets that form go; and letting go is not always so easy.

As to the detailed treatment of Titan Lodge: since these are the antagonists throughout the book, reader must begin to understand them early on. And there is much more to them than I've touched on here.

Again, thank you both for your time and attention.

Bill W

Hey Bill,

My review is up. Sorry, I couldn't get in this weekend to writerscafe.

To CDnsurfer: Thanks for your insight. I know it is difficult to jump into scene 3 without knowing scenes 1 and 2.

To Cameron:

Your point about showing rather than telling is well taken.

However, I could make a book out of the backstory, so showing it to you would require I skip the story I'm interested in. The backstory is very important to the story I need to tell, so it is not completely useless. Perhaps I need to present it another way, but most of it does need to be presented, though not dramatized. Most of what is in a book, or implied by one, is by necessity not dramatized, for of course dramatization slows the story down close to real time. We couldn't cover a day of real time in a normal length novel.

These two scenes compress a year into 8 pages of text. Given they are mostly ineffective pages needing much change, have you any suggestions how I could inject this year's worth of backstory in a more pleasing manner without taking up many more pages?

To Loekie:

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Of course she has her biological parents; and then the Grand Wizard of Titanus, her true, shall we say, spiritual father. Hope I haven't disappointed, but this is not a story about homosexuality (though this subject is touched upon, if you can read another 200 pages).

As to slang, Gust has had twelve years of intensive English; he reads the encyclopedia. But even if he didn't know, the narrator knows and the narrator is not Gust. He is the storyteller. Gust doesn't need to know all the narrator's words. Just as the narrator expresses his view what the bear must be thinking, without this being any reference to Gust at all. Bloody fit is of course the narrator's voice. This is known as presentational. I intend that the narrator has an attitude about the story he tells. Perhaps a problem is that I don't make this more obvious and more frequent from the very beginning.

To CC and Julie:

Thanks both of you for your detailed reviews. I address this to you both, as you cover much of the same ground. A few questions:

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What do you call a scene or two? Do you mean a few paragraphs of slice of life including dialogue, all fitting within approximately the same number of pages (given cuts in narration)? How many words do you envision these scenes? A few paragraphs each? A few thousand words? I ask, knowing that if I were to make scenes out of exposition throughout the book I might double my word total. I need to be able to universalize this advice.

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The narrator is not Gust, but the storyteller. The narrator's opinion is that the bear must be irritated. This is a smidgen of presentational narration here, not representational narration. It is meant to be silly/humorous, and I don't understand why the reader should mind this. My question: must all humor be confined narrowly to what the POV character regards as humorous? If so, then it would be true that a humorless protagonist would necessarily be stuck in a humorless book.

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Again, this is presentational. The storyteller, the narrator, knows the story he is telling. Instead of allowing him to put his spin on it, you suggest a scene from a minor character's POV, which would be OK if we had a million words worth of space. But of course the pound man is never going to have a scene in his POV (perhaps what you think of as a scene is not what I think of; thus the question above; are you speaking of something like the very brief break at the end of Leah's scene?). My question: is the "POV break" so utterly important that the reader cannot enjoy getting a quick glimpse of Gust you seem to be saying must not be allowed? That is, does the reader not enjoy this aftermath? If she does, then who cares about the break? Why cannot the narrator, who is telling the story, give reader this information? After all, he is a storyteller who believes his opinion is worthwhile.

Same with the lines Julie mentions about Gust being a foolish dog for food and then not being dumb a line later. This is narrator's take on the story. This narrator has an attitude; why is the reader so troubled by this?

As to the following quote:
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I understand "conclusory" from previous conversations, CC. Can you explain your use of "purple." Because this comes up more than once, I ask what is wrong with "purple" The Monumental Error quote's purpose is an early attempt to define War on Error for the reader; far above this quote, you mention such explanation should be shown in a scene of its own (the number of scenes mount up and up). But to my mind, that is perhaps like trying to show in a scene what a democrat is, or what a War on Terror is. How can one define a theme in a single scene? This is the job of the entire work, but if I don't have an early mention of it, the reader will if nothing else wonder about the title.

Actually Gust hooted, but it sounded weak, whiny to him, and therefore it was not pleasing to him. Perhaps I need to express his displeasure more clearly, so that readers won't mistake it as a poor attitude on his part.

I will mention that the War on Error is a Titan invention, that this group in fact lives to instigate this war. I took the decision early on not to shout this out, but to allow the reader to discover it. Good to see you think the group itself might be a target, as this was my intent. And it could be a target, for the War might just be getting out of hand. But all this is to come, and I must get reader past Chapter two, which has one scene left (which you may be surprised to hear has (literally) bloody action).

So much more you've mentioned, but the POV and narration points are most important.

Thanks again

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Ok, here's what I want you to do, find the one moment in her life that shows what her life is like up until this moment. For instance this is not perfect but lets say we take the fact that she excels at gymnastics.

Celia finished her routine on the balance beam and nailed the landing.Like always. This is so boring She walked past the other girls without looking at them.

So now that's if Celia is the aloof, I'm-so-perfect-that-no-one-understands-me type arrogant person. But you have hints that she is more along the lines of the gracious I'm-perfect-but-I-don't-want-anyone-else-to-know type. For instance:

Celia nailed the landing and grimaced. Still off the mark by two inches. Gosh darn it The other girls gathered around her smiling and Celia forced a smile onto her face.

Now like I said niether of these is perfect, but both of them show me what type of person she is (perfect or a perfectionist). That she rejects other people, or accepts them but not fully. It's fine to have backstory in the piece, but do it in small chunks. For example with the "little Miss perfect" Celia.

It was always like this for her, grades, school, people. They all came too easily. They don't adore me enough. They don't understand how wrong they are to ignore me

In that one sentence I've established that she's good at everything. Again not perfect, but I hope you see what I mean. Lets take the example for the "perfectionist" Celia.

Why do they always adore me. Don't they understand that a 99 on my calculus test is still not a hundred Celia scurried out from among the throng of girls.

Again this isn't so good because I'm hampered by the character not thinking she's perfect. But that's what you have to find, and I'm sure you know who she is and what she means to the story, but you need to show us the reader that. Put us there with her, and don't tell us this is happening before Gust's plot. Let the story do that. Again take what you will and leave the rest.

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Ahh, but you can. In fact I can cover a day in four sentences. I got up. I went to work. I came home from work. And I went to bed. Now granted this leaves some stuff out. But what you want to do is find those points in the day that show us about Celia. Her schooling, her introduction to the lodge, her meeting the grand master. Narrative is all well and good, but it needs to blend in, or honestly have more of a voice of it's own to work here. At least that's my opinion.

Dear Cameron,

You certainly got back to me quickly! Your examples are very good and helpful. Just what I was looking for.

I'm not sure how I get around telling the reader this is what she is doing for the year prior to Gust's breakout, as her quest is timed closely with his. I will have to get this knowledge into reader's mind somehow. If I do not do it up front, reader will read this scene as though it is taking place after Gust's scenes, and the reader would then read the whole thing from a completely mistaken perspective. This will take some thought.

Thanks, bill

Interesting you should mention that narrative should have "more of a voice of its own." I argue this at length with CC and Julie. Are you saying the narrator is allowed to have a clear attitude and express his opinions?

Bill,

Cameron's made my point about scene better than I could. A moment can be reflective of personality, for the backstory. As to the meeting scene, yes, that would be a longer scene, but not necessarily much so. I don't suggest an overwhelming lot of dialogue, but a conversion in the narrative from exposition (explaining) to action (showing what's happening, the details of the people, who says hello to Celia, a bit of her response).

And yes, I do think the POV breaks are a problem. First, its an inconsistency. If you want a storyteller narrator that can see beyond the characters, then you can have one, but you must actively make that choice instead of flipping back and forth between the limited third and the omniscient. The reader learns to associate with Gust through the third limited, and when you pull out of that it's disorienting. Second... these are, of course, still the money pages, the submission for publication sample pages. The current industry dictates a certain consistency in POV (thus, if you're in third limited with Gust, you stay with Gust and don't detour to scenes that he doesn't know of without switching POV character), and I worry that the breaks will hurt you when it comes time to seek publication.

-cc

Dear CC,

I have already decided that I will be rewriting fully scenes 4 and 5 when I turn to the third draft. My best idea so far would be to have Celia recollect the last year, dramatizing one or several major occurences in her life. In other words, her recollection would lead to a present-feeling dramatic scene or scenes.

And I looked around to see that indeed, Gone with the Wind shifts from omniscience to in character POV. Also Grisham does this in his books. The Firm is mentioned in particular, where he "freely mixes author narration with character point-of-view material."

And you say then that you weren't entertained by Charlie's view of Gust? (I've had more people say to me, "describe Gust"). If not, only for the reason that you know what 99% of readers don't, that it is unusual (but hardly unheard of), or for some other reason? Sure, an agent will know, if you know. But if it is entertaining...?

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Big question here is why. If you have a few well placed scenes that are spread with time transitions. (i.e. A few months later or After some time) you let the reader know that Celia's plotline is different than Gust's plotline. You've already made the break it isn't necessarily important that the reader KNOWS that this isn't concurrent with Gust. Until it becomes concurrent with Gust's plotline. Does that make sense?

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Ok here's what I think about that. I do have to agree with CC and Julie later on here that switching from Third limited to omnicient is jarring. But yes that i think in some ways. Now before anyone jumps on me about this let me explain. If you decide you want a narrator who is outside of the story (essentially an omniscient narrator) you HAVE to understand what effect that is going to have on your audience. (And remember that unlike some writers you have to consider your audience).

To explain further, writing third limited you put the reader in the scene, with the character. They know what the character is thinking. What they are feeling. In fact you have a certain luxury of NOT having to think about who your narrator is. Because your narrator is the character.

However to use omniscient well, you HAVE to consider who your narrator is. Are they rich? poor? educated? stupid? etc. Because your narrator becomes a character unto themselves. For example (still with Celia) lets consider a couple possible narrators (now again this is all my opinion and smarter people than me may disagree).

The Ferris Bueller too-cool-for-school narrator:

That's Celia walking down the hall there. She's one prime-cut, grade A, ice queen. Everyday it's the same thing, walking around like she's Miss perfect. It's kind of funny actually.

The fairy tale narrator:

Celia was a lost soul. She spent everyday trying to perfect herself. Prove to the world that somehow was special. Yet every night she cried herself to sleep.

The trick is that your reader has to know what they are getting into. And I've rarely seen this done except in openings and closings of novels. And in short stories (but that's my limited experience). Here to be honest I would avoid it. It's too jarring compared to Gust, and it's really uneccesary for the story you need to tell.

Anyways I hope that answers your question

::tongue::

I'm gonna just shut up and let Cameron explain. He's better at it, apparently.

-cc

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I hope you found some of my comments helpful. The writing is damn solid, Bill, and you have a good sense of scene so the chapters felt complete. I wouldn't mind reading chapters 1 and 2 and coming back to this.

Cdn,

I've read all your previous reviews. I was expecting to see lots of your comments in the middles of my paragraphs. When I saw none I thought there must be some mistake.

It is gratifying to find that I have pleased a reader. And it is very kind of you to wish to read scenes 1 and 2. They are still up and will be for the foreseeable future. By all accounts they are a better read than I've given you this week.

And I have come around to understanding that I am going to have to rework scenes 4 and 5 completely; I knew going in that they were not what the reader has really ordered.

I trust your input and will be thankful for any further time you wish to spend with my writing.

Bill w

Dear Cameron (AND JULIE ::tongue:: ),

I probably wrote scenes 4 and 5 ten months ago. And I want CC and everyone else to know that you have, with your varied, speedly invented, and all very plausible ideas, shamed me for PUBLIC SLOTHFULLNESS. You've demonstrated so many ways I could change things for the better that all my complaints are exhausted. I GIVE UP!

Here is a quote from Albert Zuckerman on my very problem, and his solution is exactly what Cameron has been recommending:

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The text does not say whether GARDEN OF LIES is first or third person, but Cameron has told me to do exactly what Goudge did so successfully, and if I cannot find a way to do ten pages of this, then I am just TOO DAMN LAZY to be in this business.

However, I WILL NOT bend to JULIE telling me that "as the crow flies" is just LAZY WRITING. How dare she! Apparently she has never crossed a wilderness with only a compass and geographical survey map to let her know whether she would live or die. I will not defer to her on this. That is a damn good useful saying, cliche or not. Any good braggart telling a daring hiker's tale would use this wonderful phrase.

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Well, I'm not sure if it's the rush on Sunday because I couldn't get in to wc all weekend, or because I'm missing something. Usually I have tons to say as well. This seemed to flow so well, I hardly popped out of the story. I did have those concerns about the transitions and how we wound up where we did in the story, which I think I can squeeze in this week with a look-see at chapters 1 and 2, and a re-read of chapters 3, 4, & 5. I just felt I didn't have much to say. I must have more.

1 and 2 are a quick easy read; no need for a review; I do not intend to show anything but War on Error. I am working on scene 34, at 79000 words, and will finish at 100000. Meanwhile, because of this group I am working hard on draft two of early chapters to show you, then saving your reviews for when I come to draft 3, after which I hope it will be ready to sell.

Meanwhile I see you have passed 10000 for first time after what I assume must be a long career as a short story writer (I've noticed you have huge points both here and at urbis).

May we work together here for the good of everyone.