The Review Club Forum Discussion of Loekie's Birthda..

This is the place to respond to reviews and for further reviews of Birthday.

Thanks Bullgooseloon and Mykietown. I didn't know if the piece would fly yet from your reviews, I am pleased it wasn't a pile of steaming %*&%. And you both are right as to the foreshadowing. The sad thing is a major tragedy is coming down the pike. And I know readers are going to be pissed off when it happens, but it has to happen.

The country is in a civil war and Einion is a critical character for the main character, Aillil (the son of the Queen). He is going to be chosen to be his teacher in aspects like the use of the sword. Which then brings in aspects of Sun Tzu.

And when there is an attack on the main city, he has to escort Aillil to the elves for safe keeping. Which is where most of the action of the series will take place.

What I was worried about was the interaction and sequence was a little too idyllic. I didn't want to make the family feel stereotypical ala Leave it to Beaver or Father Knows Best, but Einion has a great family and there is real love in that family. Which is tested when tragedy hits. Affecting two of the three characters. Which plays out during the series. And affects the main character Aillil.

And I am pleased to see my first draft of something didn't get completely ripped apart. For me chapters like this are critical because being the first book in a series I need to get it right immediately. Otherwise why would anyone want to get Volume 2?

Also I don't want to write a fantasy series which focuses on dark lords, evil creatures and super powerful wizards. I want people to be pulled in because of the characters and the situations. The fantasy aspect is just a backdrop. Which way too many fantasy writers don't get. And because of that, many people don't read fantasy.

Bluntly the genre is filled with generic writers who play D&D and like fireballs and lightning bolts. Their characters are just George Lucas paste-ups which can be used in many different positions and places. Just cut and paste.

I'll step off my soap box now :-)

Loekie, I think your assumptions are dead on and exactly why I grew tired of the genre. Preach it, brother! You do have other chapters up? I'll have to go check them out.

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I COMPLETELY agree. I've urged other fantasy writers to break away from the Tolkien foundations. They usually tell me that their piece is totally unique and different because they use blue fireballs instead of the more typical red fireballs. I really support your idea to make fantasy fiction more character driven. It worked for many of the comicbook superhero writers who are now considered innovators (Alan Moore, Joss Whedon, Neil Gaiman), and I'm sure a revolution in the fantasy genre would work as well.

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I do think you can muddy the waters a little here...the setting is very pristine. There's not a very strong connection between Einion's line of work as a security guard and the risk of raising a child and family. I guess as a gut reaction, I thought "security guards/policemen have wives and children all the time..." I think Bullgoose mentioned something along the lines of having at least one dark cloud in the blue sky. I think it would really help to compel the reader to turn the page more.

The first two chapters are online right now. The problem is the first chapter a little too heavy on Celtic/Anglo-Saxon words. The two people are old & wise and use big words. If you want to slug through the first chapter, I recommend you also check out my main page with a glossary, guide to people, etc. which is I still have major problems with the first chapter. The second one is more readable because the main character is a chambermaid/caretaker who doesn't use big words.

You bring up a good point, Mykietown. There are little areas, like when he speaks to Sean about his day or some of the dialogue with Ninove could have a bit more of an edge. From your comments, I see that maybe Einion should take some of his work home with him, even though it is Ninove's birthday. Thanks!

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While I agree with the idea of having a bit more edge or bitterness to the not having enough children conversation, I think that that the pristine world of the characters will contrast with an upcoming cotastraphy.

As far as a black cloud in the sky or some other type of forboding of a dismal future I wouldn't pay to much attention to that yet.... People want good things for good people and will turn the page none-the-less.

While traditionally cops, security gaurds, and other working class men do have large families, I think that the fact that they only have one kid speaks great volumes of the target opinion of the dichotomy of the family. To me it appeared that Einion was worried that he could die at work and was worried about leaving his wife with kids she couldn't care for. This outlook and way he wants to care for his family will, in contrast to the future problems, give an impacting emotional reaction to the reader... if all goes well.

Gabe

There is one thing I've noticed was missed is that Einion does admit "And I feared the responsibility of having a child". It may not have been pointed enough to make an impression. Einion, when he married Ninove, was in a dangerous job but at the same time, he wasn't ready for a child. Plus there is a big secret coming down the pike which will shed more light on why he didn't want to have kids.

As will be revealed, the security office is more than just the police. They are involved in military issues as well as investigating crime. I envisioned that the grunts would bear the "dangerous" assignments and as you move up the ranks, things get "safer." So when Ninove married Einion, she would have assumed having no kids or just one. And thus resigned herself to her fate.

Even though she hasn't joined in the conversation yet, I'll address some things from Julie's review.

I knew I could count on you. Hee-hee. Yeah, I can see the repetition. And you're right. A quick fix. And as for Ninove's age, I mention it: You know you are only thirty-five cycles old

I see your point with Gwenn. What I was trying to do was show some of the character of Einion. He is not just a good father and husband but also a good neighbour. Because of the philosophy he follows, he strives to be a genuine person and giving to those around him. I guess I have to work on that scene, and I have ideas. Hee-hee.

As to Einion bathing with Sean in the room, I know I am going to get some flak about that. And it isn't really a closeness thing, in my mind. I have a more European view of things, being Dutch and having traveled there. I fully embrace the view there is nothing wrong with nudity. I've been to nude beaches where the whole family were stark naked.

Also, as you will see, this comes into play later in the series. The humans, for the most part, have a Puritanical view whilst the elves are more European. Many humans would be horrified by the scene of a father stripping naked in front of his son, no matter his age. But because of Einion's education, he is more worldly.

I know in North America, this may cause a problem. And that will be just the beginning. When the main character, Aillil, gets to the elven enclave, there is tons of nudity. Which horrifies him.

This reflects my view. I don't understand people being uncomfortable about nudity. I think it is perfectly natural. To be blunt, I prefer as little clothing as possible. Not in the winter, though! But I see your point.

Once again, thanks! It is always a joy to get a review from you.

Loekie:

Damn, I scanned it a few times for her age. Cycles I guess threw me. Since you did give her age, I wonder about avoiding it instead. I liked that I didn't have a clear idea (my bad). First of all, because the old-world feel of the story and the invented world. Does the reader have a clear age of mortality? Plus, you can avoid the sticky issues of childbirth at 35. I'm assuming she will have a baby of course.

Now on to nudity, (a favorite topic I assure you). I agree that there is a very different outlook on nudity depending upon the place you live. Personally, I think the nudity is fine, but I mentioned it because you will get flak. So I suppose it comes down to where you want to sell the rights. I think the nudity might go down easier in North America if you change the deepening voice line. It didn't strike me that there would be an issue until that was mentioned.

I hope my review was helpful, even though there rarely is anything I can slam you on.

Julie

Ah, Julie, didn't you read my last line? I always find your reviews insightful. And you weren't rough. I've had worse, trust me. Also to let you know, humans live to be around 130 to 150 years (cycles) in my world. So 35 is no problem. Also remember, this is fantasy. It is my world. I can do as I please. Here I am God! That is until the reviewers come along :=)

First off, thanks for your review, Wheldon. I see your point about security guards, yet Einion is part of a security force. He isn't some portly person sitting at a desk checking ids. And actually, some of the security guards I know are quite intelligent. They are just doing the job because of the money and the hours. It is a temporary station for them.

Yet you bring up a good point. This is the first chapter of a section for the book focused on his POV. He is not part of the previous chapters, save as a secondary, remote character. But your point is making me reconsider the job title. Even though this is a fantasy, people bring in their own interpretations into a piece. And your comments are legitimate. And you are right, Einion is more educated than many know. That is part of the secret that will be revealed in subsequent chapters.

As being dropped in cold, yeah you are. There are tons of things that happen before you meet Einion. Yet they really aren't important to this chapter. The civil war, the politics are critical issues but, at this point, Einion is not part of that. The sad thing, he will be drawn into that maelstrom. And as it has been hinted, leads to tragedy.

The key thing, what I wanted, was that does the piece work? Did I present a good "mood"? And be it your review or others, the chapter seems to work. Once more of the book comes on line, you'll see how it all meshes.

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*chuckle* This is totally random, but many of said security guards are writers.

-cc

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And that's why I've developed my own Loekie cult. We worship all things Canadian... ::biggrin::

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Why yes, yes they are! ::biggrin::

Okay, that is scary. A Loekie cult? My ego is big enough already!

Enough jocularity. On to Cameron's review. The next one will address Leah.

First, I am a little confused by what you meant as double entendre? I hope you are not referring to My bush is delicate, you know? I know I don't set up she is talking about her rose bush, but that comment makes me scratch my head.

As to your point about the tech of my world, I see your point. Basically it is medieval, around 12th century. I can see that the use of "desk" might seem out of place, but even then they had desks. If you happen to know a synonym that might work, I'll use it but I have yet to find one.

And you are right about the lack of description and aspects of conflict. This chapter starts the fourth section of the book. The previous section sets up the primary aspects of the civil war, the threats against the royal family and all the details of the security force. It lays the context for Einion and what happens next, especially his becoming a teacher for the primary character Aillil.

And as you point out, only so much can be done in 5000 words. My chapters general clock in starting at 8000.

But the key thing I wanted to get from you guys was does the piece work. And overall, within the limited context you've had, the response has been positive. And for that I am pleased.

Now, onto Leah. I see that most of what you are pointing out is because you were dropped somewhat later in the book. Aspects of the descriptions like the falls, the castle complex, the environs are dealt with earlier on. So yeah, this piece is assuming you have read the earlier stuff, so the description becomes unnecessary.

The basis of my series is Celtic and Amerindian. Thus the Celtic names and aspect of the piece. The tech is harder to pin down because of the history of the world. The tech is 12th century but magic & other details has muddied the waters.

The security force is a hybrid of a police force and intelligence agency. With a dash of the military thrown in. It is run by the main ministry of defense. Which again sounds modern.

I suppose the problem I am facing is I am exploring aspects which a lot of fantasy doesn't. So I may not be using "proper" fantasy terms. Which is why I am here. As more of Tangled Threads comes on line, there may be a better way to express "security officer" from what you will read.

Yet at the same time, I want to make sure the terms are familiar enough for the reader to know and understand.

Oh it's just that my mind is in the gutter sometimes :) The entire section of dialogue sounds innocent, but if read right there is a double entendre there. Ahh I didn't know that this was a section of a novel. I do apologize. Honestly I think that it adresses my issue with the lack of conflict.

On period and technology and so on in fantasy:

I think I have some of the same problems with setting, both physical and intellectual, shall we say. My world is a mix of Renaissance and Victorian in both ideas and technology. Telepathic powers make some technology redundant, so folks haven't developed it, and different nations develop differently. As a correlative of that, intellectual traditions that have grown out of general telepathic ability might seem more advanced than the technological state might allow for. I have it all worked out, but I don't want to deliver lengthy explanations within the narrative. These things are taken for granted by the characters, and I'm telling the stories through their points of view, not as an external narrator.

It is a little tricky.

I get the point about setting being established in earlier chapters. It might still be good to toss in a litle detail, here and there, just to keep setting present to the reader. I tend to get wrapped up in dialogue myself, 'coz I find it moves the story -- but there has to also be physical context, so the reader keeps seeing the narrative as real and it doesn't become a radio play.